sunset from behind the wire

sunset from behind the wire

Tuesday, February 5, 2019

How Fast can you Run?

Lions Will Eat You


(Mauling) I'm guessing this runner in Colorado who was attacked by a mountain lion had a handgun and killed it that way. Otherwise, I suspect that it would be challenging to kill a healthy young lion that was in the process of killing you.

You wouldn't see the press justifying carrying a handgun for self defense, would you? It's just not progressive. Better to be eaten by a lion. I'm sure that there are freaks out there would side with the lion...unless their child was being eaten. Then again, it's progressive to kill babies, so maybe not. I haven't seen parents taking kids to the zoo and tossing them into lion cages - while progressive onlookers cheer the carnage. But nothing would surprise me these days. (yes, LSP, there was that uncomfortable situation where Harambe ended up being killed.)

Here at the White Wolf Mine there are different carry options when it come to cartridges from .22 LR to .460 S&W. The most common lion deterrents are the Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull and the Glock 21 (.45 ACP). Before you 1911 purists start blaggarding the Glock 21, this is a Gen 1, with significant modifications to tune it to fire +P and +P+ ammunition, which I prefer when we're talking war shots. There is also a custom Lone Wolf barrel, threaded for whatever. You will note that it does NOT have silencer (hush puppy) sights mounted on it. 

Anyway, where are there large predators in the area (bear and lion in particular, but there are wolves), an investment in an appropriate firearm is called for. I carried these firearms primarily to defeat human targets, but up here we do have significant animal predators as well. These are heavy firearms, not recommended for runners. However, my suggestion to any runner is to try and carry something that will allow you a one-shot kill as opposed to a firearm/cartridge combo that require you to hit the target repeatedly to render it safe.


46 comments:

  1. I never heard of +P or +P+. But we don't have a Glock so that may be why.
    Don't have anything against Glock. Tried to talk hubby into one when he was looking to downsize his 10 mm (I think that is how it is written? Haha)

    Ah well. Yes. Something that is not too heavy, but has a variety stopping power.

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    1. The difference between a standard .45 ACP cartridge and a .45 +P or +P+ is additional powder or faster burning powder (+Powder) to impel the projectile to a faster velocity. You can buy 10 mm +P if you think that you need it or if you want it.

      That particular handgun is tuned to greater recoil and it doesn't really like cycling standard ammo.

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  2. My Charter Arms Bulldog is small and not real heavy. The 5 rounds in .44 Special is adequate for I might encounter. There are rare reports of Grizzly (Brown) bears in Colorado that might need something bigger.

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    1. The Bulldog should be sufficient for anything or anyone trying to eat you.

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  3. Go running with a friend, and carry something light weight in 22 LR. In the event of an attack, shoot your (former) friend in the foot and run.

    I know, it's an old joke. I just have no self restraint.

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    1. It can be an effective strategy. Remind me NOT to go running with you.

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    2. Heh. I like to think in that event we would more resemble John Wayne and Kirk Douglas--

      "Mine hit the ground first".

      "Mine was taller".

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    3. I've had arguments about whose rifle bullet killed the deer/elk. In that case, if the bullet remains in the deer, we have taken it home and weighed it. Rule of thumb is that the bullet will lose about 50% of mass traveling through the animal. Whose round did the deed? The bullet can speak to you. If you're shooting the same ammo, then that option doesn't work.

      Some of the new pistol bullets are frangible to the point that they turn into shrapnel inside of the target. I referenced Leheigh Defense in comments below. In that case, tough to tell whose round killed.

      But for the record, mine was taller and hit the ground first ;^)

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  4. It's a story that made us both suspicious. If the mountain lion attacked the guy from behind, it would be extremely hard to kill a young, healthy lion trying to kill you. Never tried to drill shooting someone on my back, but I don't think it would be that easy either.

    I recall a story a few years ago about a woman jogging in SoCal getting grabbed and pulled off the road by a lion. It jumped out of cover, grabbed her entire head in it's mouth, and dragged her off kicking and screaming. Some mountain bikers were nearby, heard it and saved her, but it took a long time to recover.

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    1. My sister-in-law was there on the scene within about ten minutes from the attack - just running. It was a chilling story. There are other SoCal stories where the lion ate a jogger, or took a toddler in Casper State Park. They're not just stories. It happens.

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  5. The report I read stated it was a juvenile male and that the runner "suffocated" the lion.....a feat I find VERY difficult to believe unless the runner was someone who could trade places with Hercules.

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    1. The story says that it was an 80 pound lion. A juvenile, but an 80 pound lion is a serious hand full of lion.

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    2. I suspect it must've been sick and malnourished, especially at this time of year. Even so, strangling that cat would be no easy feat. If the guy was very fit, strong, quick -- and lucky -- he might pull it off. Still, why wasn't he thinking of Gaia and the plight of the poor cat?

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    3. Maybe it was sick, or maybe it was after the challenge of taking him down. Cats are like that. It would be interesting to read an after-action evaluation of the whole incident.

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  6. Replies
    1. Harambe loves you, LSP. Now he's there in heaven, advocating for those who remember him.

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  7. Every now and then you hear of a jogger getting attacked. I certainly wouldn't wander lion country without some sort of sidearm. While there have been no lion sightings(just rumors) around here, there are other predators around, usually bipedal. Always pack.

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    1. Better to have a firearm - and spare ammo - than not to.

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  8. big cats are sharp and pointy, not water buffalo. 80 pound cat vs 180 lb man hopped up on adrenalin, edge to the cat but not by much. besides kitty wasn't planning on a counter strike. they are amazingly fragile and know it, which is why they don't fight, they ambush. still, pretty stupid not to be armed in their turf.

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    1. Going fists to claws with a cat and killing it in that way is the hard way to do it for sure. I don't know the details of the situation beyond what's in the press, but it would take a serious stud to beat the lion to death.

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  9. There was a story out of Canada several years ago, where an old man strangled a mountain lion that attacked him. Never know what you can do when pumped up on adrenaline.

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    1. There have been stories about people who killed grizzly bears too, and there are pictures of the dead bear and chopped up people who did it with a knife or some such. But they're always close-run encounters.

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  10. I have a S&W model 60 in .357 for my EDC. I keep it loaded with 180gr hard cast for possoble bear at close range. I leave the 180's in in the winter when I go to the city but change over to 125gr hollow points in town in summer.

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    1. That makes sense. The Model 60 is a very good choice, as are your ammo choices. Better that the bear go its own way, but that's not always how it happens, and either you finish the bear or you're bear scat.

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  11. Even at my all-time physical peak I wouldn't want an 80 lb cat on me!

    Things are different "out here" from the Big City, which is why I started carrying when I walked the dog at the little country house when we first moved here.

    And a 12ga loaded with slugs was kept by the door!!

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    1. An 80 pound cat leaping on your back, burying its claws in your back as it gnaws on your neck and skull is no small thing. Not fully grown but lethal. I realize that the progs live their lives wishing that the world was fair and that if you sprinkle fairy dust on a hungry mountain lion, that they should go away. But better to have something that will end the argument.

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    2. The two brothers that own the tree service we used live up in the Arapaho & Roosevelt National Forest at around 800'. One has a nice really nice place, and the younger one has a much more 'rustic' cabin. The young guy was headed to the outhouse one night (it's rustic, alright), and ran smack into a big cat that had taken down a deer. He said even though the cat was pretty occupied, he was surprised how fast he got back in the house.

      These guys all carry at least a 357 with "Buffalo Bore" loads.

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    3. My wife's uncle lives not far from Sun Valley. They saw a lion once at dusk while in the hot tub out back, and found tracks several times. There's no hot tubbing now without a .44 Magnum or a Marlin lever rifle in .45-70 at hand.

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    4. DRJIM - It sounds like they are men with some experience.

      Larry - Good choice, unless you want to end up as the main course in a lion banquet.

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    5. I just looked this up in the local paper, and it happened about 5 miles West of here, up by the Horsetooth Reservoir.

      We may be in the city, but the wilderness is only a few miles from here, and there are sharp, pointy things living there that see you as lunch.

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    6. So long as you travel with Pebbles-the-Wonder-Dog, you should be safe as you are under Pebbles' protection.

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  12. LL, anything I can do for a S&W .40? I have a Glock 23 primarily for CC.

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    1. I'd change out the guide rod and go to an after market recoil spring. Glocks are very good out of the box, but they are not designed for hotter loads. You'll find that there are different recoil springs out there, and depending on how picky you are, you can choose one that best matches the ammunition that you shoot.

      As a cautionary note, if you tune up your pistol and then shoot crap ammo through it, you'll find that it does not like your cheap Blazer ammo.

      My standard go-to pistol ammo is either Hornady or Leheigh Defense (https://www.lehighdefense.com) depending on the round and application. Leheigh is a smaller operation but they have some very good bullet options. Everyone has their favorites. I try to stick with the Hornady critical defense because they have a superior product that USUALLY beats out their competition.

      I avoid cheap ammo, that is usually substandard in its load consistency, powder quality, projectile and primer quality. My philosophy is that when I need to shoot the weapon, I want optimum performance and if that happens, cost is insignificant.

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    2. All a gun is, is a bullet launcher- the bullet does all the work. The bullet ,oft neglected, un-glamorous, just a throwaway, is the unsung star of the show.
      About a cat- hard to believe any attempt to strangle a cat from the front, would not end with a lot of loose hanging shredded intestines- from behind,maybe- it is seconds to turn off the lights on a human with a good neck lock, maybe a cat is no different.

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  13. I wear claymore mines wherever I go.

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  14. I use Hornady Critical Defense.

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  15. On every level, you are wolf, Larry. But don't kill your pack - train them to kill trespassers.

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    1. I am trying.

      And I've disarmed the landmines with trip wires to try and not take out my own tribe as they stalk innocent deer and not so innocent people.

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  16. A couple of stupid enthusiasts decided to paddle around Svalbard in kayaks without having the best armor and tripwire available. The polar bear quickly grabbed one of the guys in the sleeping bag and carried him away. The shotgun he had broke into parts and was useless in close combat. The guy had a rifle and he was able to shoot the polar bear while his buddy was hanging from that jaws of the bear. It was a lucky hit and the guy survived.

    I am always puzzled when it comes to how people apply their intelligence when it comes to picking the right choice of protection.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8686284/Norway-polar-bear-attack-how-two-adventurers-were-mauled-on-same-island.html

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    1. Sometimes humans feel that they are naturally apex predators. Clearly we are we use our brains and have the proper tools. Without brains and tools, we're just protein and bear scat.

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    2. "Just call yourself a pork chop" is a saying I hear on one of the Alaska shows I watch, referring to if you don't take your safely seriously.

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    3. Exactly, Linda G. Go armed, go trained, go safe.

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  17. My thinking has been that if it were something other than a firearm self-protection story, that the method would have been in the headlines.

    Mountain Lions are sure dangerous, but certainly not in the African Lion kind of way, they just aren't huge like that. Humans can be pretty dangerous, too... after all, we aren't only off the endangered species list because of the kindness of lions.

    This guy was out jogging, maybe he's really buff?
    -Kle.

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    1. He's a stud if he choked an 80 pound pissed-off cougar to death.

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